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	<title>Comments on: An Alternative College Admissions System</title>
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	<description>No Dewey-eyed dreamers here</description>
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		<title>By: Most Popular Posts and Favorites &#124; educationrealist</title>
		<link>http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/an-alternative-college-admissions-system/#comment-2804</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Most Popular Posts and Favorites &#124; educationrealist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 May 2013 01:26:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/?p=1943#comment-2804</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] An Alternative College Admissions&#160;System [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] An Alternative College Admissions&nbsp;System [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/an-alternative-college-admissions-system/#comment-2507</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anthony]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Mar 2013 02:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/?p=1943#comment-2507</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Without getting into the &quot;Are Jews white?&quot; question, I&#039;d note that a Jewish parent is *more* likely to take their kid to a therapist and to listen when the therapist tells him to stop that than a non-Jewish white parent.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without getting into the &#8220;Are Jews white?&#8221; question, I&#8217;d note that a Jewish parent is *more* likely to take their kid to a therapist and to listen when the therapist tells him to stop that than a non-Jewish white parent.</p>
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		<title>By: Why Most of the Low Income &#8220;Strivers&#8221; are White &#124; educationrealist</title>
		<link>http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/an-alternative-college-admissions-system/#comment-2463</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Why Most of the Low Income &#8220;Strivers&#8221; are White &#124; educationrealist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Mar 2013 00:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/?p=1943#comment-2463</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] None of this will be resolved by the Supreme Court decision; universities have demonstrated unyielding allegiance to URM admissions and rich white legacy donors. But in my perfect world, college admissions would work something like this. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] None of this will be resolved by the Supreme Court decision; universities have demonstrated unyielding allegiance to URM admissions and rich white legacy donors. But in my perfect world, college admissions would work something like this. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Skills vs. Knowledge &#124; educationrealist</title>
		<link>http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/an-alternative-college-admissions-system/#comment-2255</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Skills vs. Knowledge &#124; educationrealist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/?p=1943#comment-2255</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] world. They are only essential for signaling to colleges that the student is a smart cookie, and as Ron Unz and Chris Hayes both point out, the value in that varies based on the student race and family SES [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] world. They are only essential for signaling to colleges that the student is a smart cookie, and as Ron Unz and Chris Hayes both point out, the value in that varies based on the student race and family SES [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: 2012 in review &#171; educationrealist</title>
		<link>http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/an-alternative-college-admissions-system/#comment-1475</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[2012 in review &#171; educationrealist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2013 02:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/?p=1943#comment-1475</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Alternative College Admissions System&#8211;#9 on my most read list, an answer to Ron Unz&#8217;s controversial article about the myth of american meritocracy [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Alternative College Admissions System&#8211;#9 on my most read list, an answer to Ron Unz&#8217;s controversial article about the myth of american meritocracy [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Wobbly Guy</title>
		<link>http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/an-alternative-college-admissions-system/#comment-1321</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Wobbly Guy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 06:41:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/?p=1943#comment-1321</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s nearly impossible to prep students for it. If the cram schools can do it, they might as well take over the teaching of first year syllabus for most universities.

What most teachers/tutors can do is to try to help them identify general patterns and get them to understand that the most important step is to learn on the spot. But if they can&#039;t see it, then they just can&#039;t see it - their brain processes can&#039;t handle the complexity or the number of variables involved.

I suspect it&#039;s incredibly g-loaded, although I have no academic proof. It&#039;s like IQ tests, the most difficult IQ questions (e.g. Raven&#039;s Prog. Matrices) have patterns only the geniuses can identify - the non-geniuses might be able to understand it, but only after somebody explains it to them. Absent that somebody else (e.g. an exam setting), they&#039;re dead meat.

I know this intimately because my country is shifting our assessment standards in this direction. The A Level Science (Physics, Chem, Bio) papers for the past few years have been historically difficult due to the type 3 questions used, but a clearer and fairer indicator of who would be likely to excel in university.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s nearly impossible to prep students for it. If the cram schools can do it, they might as well take over the teaching of first year syllabus for most universities.</p>
<p>What most teachers/tutors can do is to try to help them identify general patterns and get them to understand that the most important step is to learn on the spot. But if they can&#8217;t see it, then they just can&#8217;t see it &#8211; their brain processes can&#8217;t handle the complexity or the number of variables involved.</p>
<p>I suspect it&#8217;s incredibly g-loaded, although I have no academic proof. It&#8217;s like IQ tests, the most difficult IQ questions (e.g. Raven&#8217;s Prog. Matrices) have patterns only the geniuses can identify &#8211; the non-geniuses might be able to understand it, but only after somebody explains it to them. Absent that somebody else (e.g. an exam setting), they&#8217;re dead meat.</p>
<p>I know this intimately because my country is shifting our assessment standards in this direction. The A Level Science (Physics, Chem, Bio) papers for the past few years have been historically difficult due to the type 3 questions used, but a clearer and fairer indicator of who would be likely to excel in university.</p>
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		<title>By: Fake Grades and Big Money: The KIPP &#8220;Pledges&#8221; &#171; educationrealist</title>
		<link>http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/an-alternative-college-admissions-system/#comment-1317</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fake Grades and Big Money: The KIPP &#8220;Pledges&#8221; &#171; educationrealist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2012 20:40:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/?p=1943#comment-1317</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] I wrote about an alternative college admissions plan and apparently all anyone thinks I did was diss Asians. I mean, come on, that&#8217;s not all [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I wrote about an alternative college admissions plan and apparently all anyone thinks I did was diss Asians. I mean, come on, that&#8217;s not all [...]</p>
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		<title>By: educationrealist</title>
		<link>http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/an-alternative-college-admissions-system/#comment-1314</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[educationrealist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2012 17:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/?p=1943#comment-1314</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I like the idea of stuff you learn right on the spot (although Asian cram schools will start to figure out how to prep them for it). I don&#039;t think we should discourage a fact base. 

And you are exactly right about why it leaves their minds. Kids like that (of any race) don&#039;t care about the knowledge. They care about the grade.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea of stuff you learn right on the spot (although Asian cram schools will start to figure out how to prep them for it). I don&#8217;t think we should discourage a fact base. </p>
<p>And you are exactly right about why it leaves their minds. Kids like that (of any race) don&#8217;t care about the knowledge. They care about the grade.</p>
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		<title>By: The Wobbly Guy</title>
		<link>http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/an-alternative-college-admissions-system/#comment-1313</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Wobbly Guy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2012 16:36:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/?p=1943#comment-1313</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I also posted most of this response on Steve&#039;s blog:

A test that Asians can&#039;t crush whites on? I think it&#039;s quite easy. When devising a subject test (eg. Chemistry), contain the following types of questions:

1. Some knowledge questions. No more than 40% of the score. Memorise, ho hum types. Easy as heck.

2. Some application/data response questions. Again, no more than 40% of the score. Requires some brainpower, but set at a level that the slightly above average student can work through.

3. Have 20% of the score based on questions that teach a concept right on the spot, and ask the candidate to solve them using the concept outlined. It&#039;s great fun for the intellectually curious, but not so fun for the grinders, who might do well for the other question types but fall apart here when they realize they have to actually THINK. It&#039;s the content version of the IQ test, assessing the student&#039;s ability to identify and apply the patterns taught. In essence, the raw core of intelligence.

To avoid disadvantaging the non-grinders (eg. whites), you can make questions belonging to type 1 and 2 really damn easy, or even make it pseudo-open book (you can bring in an A5 sized card filled with whatever info you want, for example) that enables good students to be able to do well on types 1 and 2 even if they didn&#039;t really prep hard enough.

Then toss in type 3 questions to sieve out the really brilliant who deserve to get into the elite ranks, able to think, improvise on the spot, and create new (for them) patterns of thought in a short period of time, which is where the smart but lazy students have a chance to shine. Works every time, and almost impossible to prep for, because the type 3 question content is often university level and there&#039;s just too much content at that level to grind through. Interestingly enough, my experience tells me boys tend to do better than girls on type 3s - they are willing to take risks and are able to adapt faster in these situations.

Regarding coursework grading, I agree that using them for admissions is a mistake. All too easy to game for.

Lastly, the reason why the asian kids don&#039;t seem to know about the facts you expect them to? They simply don&#039;t care, because it doesn&#039;t resonate with them at all, and even if it&#039;s tested, the minute after the course/exam ends, it&#039;s out of their minds.

It&#039;s worse when those facts have cultural significance, which again is dismissed easily because they might feel it&#039;s not their culture (just taking a blind stab at assimilation issues). But for the white, hispanic, or even black kids, the sense of identity and history they have from their families and community, even their very race, makes it stick better (conflicts with Mexico, black history etc).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also posted most of this response on Steve&#8217;s blog:</p>
<p>A test that Asians can&#8217;t crush whites on? I think it&#8217;s quite easy. When devising a subject test (eg. Chemistry), contain the following types of questions:</p>
<p>1. Some knowledge questions. No more than 40% of the score. Memorise, ho hum types. Easy as heck.</p>
<p>2. Some application/data response questions. Again, no more than 40% of the score. Requires some brainpower, but set at a level that the slightly above average student can work through.</p>
<p>3. Have 20% of the score based on questions that teach a concept right on the spot, and ask the candidate to solve them using the concept outlined. It&#8217;s great fun for the intellectually curious, but not so fun for the grinders, who might do well for the other question types but fall apart here when they realize they have to actually THINK. It&#8217;s the content version of the IQ test, assessing the student&#8217;s ability to identify and apply the patterns taught. In essence, the raw core of intelligence.</p>
<p>To avoid disadvantaging the non-grinders (eg. whites), you can make questions belonging to type 1 and 2 really damn easy, or even make it pseudo-open book (you can bring in an A5 sized card filled with whatever info you want, for example) that enables good students to be able to do well on types 1 and 2 even if they didn&#8217;t really prep hard enough.</p>
<p>Then toss in type 3 questions to sieve out the really brilliant who deserve to get into the elite ranks, able to think, improvise on the spot, and create new (for them) patterns of thought in a short period of time, which is where the smart but lazy students have a chance to shine. Works every time, and almost impossible to prep for, because the type 3 question content is often university level and there&#8217;s just too much content at that level to grind through. Interestingly enough, my experience tells me boys tend to do better than girls on type 3s &#8211; they are willing to take risks and are able to adapt faster in these situations.</p>
<p>Regarding coursework grading, I agree that using them for admissions is a mistake. All too easy to game for.</p>
<p>Lastly, the reason why the asian kids don&#8217;t seem to know about the facts you expect them to? They simply don&#8217;t care, because it doesn&#8217;t resonate with them at all, and even if it&#8217;s tested, the minute after the course/exam ends, it&#8217;s out of their minds.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s worse when those facts have cultural significance, which again is dismissed easily because they might feel it&#8217;s not their culture (just taking a blind stab at assimilation issues). But for the white, hispanic, or even black kids, the sense of identity and history they have from their families and community, even their very race, makes it stick better (conflicts with Mexico, black history etc).</p>
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		<title>By: educationrealist</title>
		<link>http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/an-alternative-college-admissions-system/#comment-1305</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[educationrealist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 00:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationrealist.wordpress.com/?p=1943#comment-1305</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Agreed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed.</p>
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